glorious idea

27 Comments

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WasteofBreath · Moderator · 16 points · 7 years ago
I like the argument, but I upvoted for the Username

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sweet_jesus · -13 points · 7 years ago
except that the nets actually stop sharks and the regulations don't actually stop the guns....

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thebricks · Poster of the Month · 19 points · 7 years ago


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Downudder · Commenter of the Day · 3 points · 7 years ago
I thought it was a very directly undirect jab at pro-gun nuts.

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Downudder · Commenter of the Day · 1 points · 7 years ago
Now I'm left wondering whether I was downvoted by pro-gun nutjobs or by anti-gun idiots who didn't understand my comment.

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Downudder · Commenter of the Day · 1 points · 7 years ago
Not sure if trolling or really really stupid.

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AdvocateDiaboli · Hardcore Commenter · 7 points · 7 years ago
I really wonder how it works in the whole western world but somehow it wouldn't work in the US.

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sweet_jesus · 1 points · 7 years ago
yea, britain is doing great. most strict rules and all the people are defenseless against all the knife attacks

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AdvocateDiaboli · Hardcore Commenter · 1 points · 7 years ago
And still, the US have a 5 times higher homicide rate per 100.000 citizens than the UK.
<sarcasm> Even though US citizens are obivously quite safe because everyone is allowed to carry a gun. </sarcasm>
<sarcasm> Even though US citizens are obivously quite safe because everyone is allowed to carry a gun. </sarcasm>

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sweet_jesus · 1 points · 7 years ago
literally 60% of that are suicides and a lot of the shootings happen in gun free zones. hmm, about that tea...

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AdvocateDiaboli · Hardcore Commenter · 1 points · 7 years ago
60 % of the counted homicides are suicides? Doubt it. Pretty sure those are in another statistic.
Or the word homicide means something totally different than I think it does... Feel free to correct me if it means something else than one person killing another?
I think Relcored gave a few good points that I have to think about, especially in his last post and especially about pros and cons.
Bus as far as I can see, the US has a problem with their number of intended killings. And the reason are either somewhere deep in their society (which is possible because they have the most concurrence based system) or it's because guns make killing easy.
Or the word homicide means something totally different than I think it does... Feel free to correct me if it means something else than one person killing another?
I think Relcored gave a few good points that I have to think about, especially in his last post and especially about pros and cons.
Bus as far as I can see, the US has a problem with their number of intended killings. And the reason are either somewhere deep in their society (which is possible because they have the most concurrence based system) or it's because guns make killing easy.

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TomasIsReal · Poster of the Day · 1 points · 7 years ago
Gun crimes dropped in Australia, but not other types of violent crimes.

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AdvocateDiaboli · Hardcore Commenter · 3 points · 7 years ago
Which is another hint that regulations stop gun crimes...
The funny part is, that in the US - thanks to the 3 strikes rule - they have generally less crime than most of the EU. Only when you add gun crimes and homicides they start to have more crime per X citizens. So either the society there is completely ***ed up - or the selling of weapons to nearly everyone does it's part to it. I don't know what I would rather believe.
And honestly, I like shooting. It's a lot of fun and I know that you feel safer when you carry a gun. But obviously it won't help when everyone carries a gun so one shouldn't defend weapons that much and instead think of other ways - maybe individual american ways that wouldn't work elsewhere - to make the US safer.
The funny part is, that in the US - thanks to the 3 strikes rule - they have generally less crime than most of the EU. Only when you add gun crimes and homicides they start to have more crime per X citizens. So either the society there is completely ***ed up - or the selling of weapons to nearly everyone does it's part to it. I don't know what I would rather believe.
And honestly, I like shooting. It's a lot of fun and I know that you feel safer when you carry a gun. But obviously it won't help when everyone carries a gun so one shouldn't defend weapons that much and instead think of other ways - maybe individual american ways that wouldn't work elsewhere - to make the US safer.

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Relcored · 3-Year Club · 1 points · 7 years ago
Well I can try to throw some info out if you really want. Basically the sweeping gun reform/buyback program that worked in Australia would never work in America. There are far too many guns both legal and illegal. The Americans who do own guns most are so much against gun grabbers that you would literally start a civil war with the kind of policies that went into effect in Australia and I can attest that gun owners vastly outnumber and outgun the law enforcement that would be given the task of trying to collect the arms. Lastly, the argument can be made that "gun deaths" (mostly suicides) would be replaced by other methods of violence which would as a whole not create the effect that people think. Example, people think if a person does not have a gun they can't actually hurt/kill another person or themselves which we know is not the reality. The fact is that violent crime in America has actually been on a steady decline even as gun ownership steadily increases over the last few decades. Most American Anti-Gun advocates live in metro areas where gang violence is a real issue and the root cause of most gun homicides while most gun advocates live in rural areas where police officers are no where near to respond to an actual emergency so safety is indeed in the hands of the people. You can see this as states with very high city populations have very strict gun regulations where the opposite is typically true for high rural populations in a state. The media exaggerates the "gun problem" of America so most people get a distorted view of reality. Our murder rate in America is 94th with 1 being the highest in the list of countries which report such data yet we have more guns per person than any country in the world. If guns = violent crime rates than we should be number 1 by far yet no where even close is the reality of it. So we can see that gun ownership does not increase murder rate.

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EarlyDead · 7-Year Club · 2 points · 7 years ago
No one would suggest 1 gun = 1 murder.
And people will find ways to kill each other, no denying that. Murder rate also has a lot to do with development status of the country etc.
But guns make it so easy.
You couldn't have something like Las Vegas happening with a kitchen knife. Yes, there are other options (like a Truck driving into a group of people), but guns make it easier (Try a school shooting with a truck).
Same can be said for suicide. There are plenty other options. But guns are much faster, so there is no "thinking twice", or stoping mid way.
And people will find ways to kill each other, no denying that. Murder rate also has a lot to do with development status of the country etc.
But guns make it so easy.
You couldn't have something like Las Vegas happening with a kitchen knife. Yes, there are other options (like a Truck driving into a group of people), but guns make it easier (Try a school shooting with a truck).
Same can be said for suicide. There are plenty other options. But guns are much faster, so there is no "thinking twice", or stoping mid way.

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AdvocateDiaboli · Hardcore Commenter · 1 points · 7 years ago
Ok, I especially agree with the problem of getting the guns away from their owners. And I agree with the point - even so you didn't specify it - that rural areas with no police should be treated differently than big cities - especially those cities with ghettos.
And I want to thank you for the clarification, that most cities which have the actual problems are already working at it.
But no one ever stated guns = killings. That's close to a strawman, because everybody knows there are other possibilities of killing. And there are a lot of factors that come into play before somebody kills somebody else, that's true. But guns make it far easier than for example a knife. With a gun you automatically aim at the biggest area - the chest. It doesn't really matter where you hit your target, as long as you get a shot in that area you have a good chance of killing him. While a knife is usually used either for cuts (rarely deadly - I've seen people with multiple big cuts sit calmly at the doctor) or stabs to the stomach (deadly in the field, but in a city... not so much.) So yes, people will still try to hurt each other, with or without guns. But guns have the higher potential to kill, even if you don't specifically want it. Not to forget the psychological effect, that a second stab with a bloody knife has compared to a second pull on the trigger.
Same goes for suicides. In countrys without legal guns, people who work in law enforcment have a much higher suicide rate than normal people, because they have an easy access to the quickest way.
My other problem is, that the US might not have the highest rate of intentional killings in the world. But your rate is 5 times higher than that of Britain, Germany or France and 3 times higher than that of Canada. Sure, people are safer than in many african states or even in one of your neighbours (Mexico), but how is that an achievement? Compared to states with a corrupt police and gangs ruling whole areas the US is safe. Great.
The US are a rich conuntry with a great law enforcement and a lot of freedom in multiple ways. Even to degrees that aren't healthy anymore imho. And as such they should be measured by high standards.
So I agree: we can see that gun ownership does not increase murder rate. (In pure numbers of owned guns.) But nobody sane would ever claim it does. Neither have I.
Still I can only see two conclusions:
Either the free access of guns increases the murder rate. (Which is still 3-5 times higher than that of comparable countries.)
Or - as you claim and I give your thesis a higher chance of being correct than my statements till now may make you think I would - the number of intentional killings would remain the same, with or without guns. Which means, that the US citizens are simply 3-5 times more likely to kill each other than comparable citizens - which I meant when I said, the society there could be ***ed up.
Thank you for your time and the informations though. I you think I got something wrong or if I don't get a point of mine (most likely because of my bad english) feel free to point it out or ask.
And I want to thank you for the clarification, that most cities which have the actual problems are already working at it.
But no one ever stated guns = killings. That's close to a strawman, because everybody knows there are other possibilities of killing. And there are a lot of factors that come into play before somebody kills somebody else, that's true. But guns make it far easier than for example a knife. With a gun you automatically aim at the biggest area - the chest. It doesn't really matter where you hit your target, as long as you get a shot in that area you have a good chance of killing him. While a knife is usually used either for cuts (rarely deadly - I've seen people with multiple big cuts sit calmly at the doctor) or stabs to the stomach (deadly in the field, but in a city... not so much.) So yes, people will still try to hurt each other, with or without guns. But guns have the higher potential to kill, even if you don't specifically want it. Not to forget the psychological effect, that a second stab with a bloody knife has compared to a second pull on the trigger.
Same goes for suicides. In countrys without legal guns, people who work in law enforcment have a much higher suicide rate than normal people, because they have an easy access to the quickest way.
My other problem is, that the US might not have the highest rate of intentional killings in the world. But your rate is 5 times higher than that of Britain, Germany or France and 3 times higher than that of Canada. Sure, people are safer than in many african states or even in one of your neighbours (Mexico), but how is that an achievement? Compared to states with a corrupt police and gangs ruling whole areas the US is safe. Great.
The US are a rich conuntry with a great law enforcement and a lot of freedom in multiple ways. Even to degrees that aren't healthy anymore imho. And as such they should be measured by high standards.
So I agree: we can see that gun ownership does not increase murder rate. (In pure numbers of owned guns.) But nobody sane would ever claim it does. Neither have I.
Still I can only see two conclusions:
Either the free access of guns increases the murder rate. (Which is still 3-5 times higher than that of comparable countries.)
Or - as you claim and I give your thesis a higher chance of being correct than my statements till now may make you think I would - the number of intentional killings would remain the same, with or without guns. Which means, that the US citizens are simply 3-5 times more likely to kill each other than comparable citizens - which I meant when I said, the society there could be ***ed up.
Thank you for your time and the informations though. I you think I got something wrong or if I don't get a point of mine (most likely because of my bad english) feel free to point it out or ask.

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